Mar 04, 2010, 05:59 AM // 05:59
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#81
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2009
Guild: FaZ
Profession: D/
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Monster skill bars suck, but if you change them you do one of two things: Make them better, or don't.
If they're better, then the game becomes harder for balanced parties (see skeletons of Dhuum). If they aren't (ie, they're specialized to counter a certain gimmick), then all you've managed to do is force players to create another gimmick to counter the new gimmick.
There are just too many things players can do to monsters. No matter how much you change the monsters, they will never be able to counter every overpowered thing a player has, so long as the players have those overpowered things.
As for randomized skill bars, this would either be a terrible idea (if they were truly random, there'd be even less synergy in them than there is now, and 90% of the time they'd still be unable to counter the gimmicks most players use), or require so much time that their likelihood of being implemented is 0 (X possible builds per monster, chosen randomly each instance, each specialized for fighting certain gimmicks). Both of these open up the option of players simply restarting the area until they get monsters with bad bars that can't counter them.
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Mar 04, 2010, 09:23 AM // 09:23
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#82
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jul 2006
Guild: Guildless
Profession: Me/
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You people do realise that even if Anet did put in this stuff, it wouldn't stop them from balancing out skills. Not that they should stop, mind you.
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Mar 04, 2010, 09:53 AM // 09:53
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#83
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Anywhere but up
Guild: The Panserbjorne [ROAR]
Profession: R/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
If they're better, then the game becomes harder for balanced parties (see skeletons of Dhuum).
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Skeletons of Dhuum are a bad example, because they didn't exist at all, previously. In fact the OP clearly said that adding new monsters specifically for the purpose of "thwarting" over-powered builds is a bad idea.
Most groups of mobs can be killed by groups of 2-3 players. It was suggested that the skill bars be updated so they are difficult to bring down, UNLESS you run with a larger group 6-8. Making monster builds more cohesive is a far cry from making them invincible and thus impossible to defeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name
As for randomized skill bars, this would either be a terrible idea (if they were truly random, there'd be even less synergy in them than there is now, and 90% of the time they'd still be unable to counter the gimmicks most players use).
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Randomizing the bars would be very bad and break any possibilities of synergy. However, randomizing which groups of monsters spawn at various locations and having a diverse pool of these groups to draw from can completely change the tactics required to complete a mission/dungeon/elite area. For instance, if instead of Aatxes and Grasping Darkness at the beginning of UW it was instead say Charged Blackness and Terrorwebs it would be very difficult for me to farm that area with my trapper.
And furthermore if those mobs had their bars updated so they couldn't be killed "easily" by gimmick builds than it would force people to find balanced builds that can cope with ALL sub-areas in the map and could potentially open up game-play to some of the under-used classes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
The problem with OP's proposal is that it makes the game too hard. You forget that a-net's task is to make PvE doable for the casual player playing normally (who is paying the bills after all), while keeping the intelligent hardcore players (and their not-so-intelligent hardcore imitators)
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There is such a thing as Hard Mode. It could be restricted to Hard Mode only, thus allowing Hard Mode to be well...hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
So, if OP's solution is no good, what would work? Well, if I were going to design the game from scratch (hint, hint: GW2) I'd go with total mob randomization like D2. Since that's probably off the table, I'd suggest something I'm going to call "random champions"
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They already have this, they're called bosses. But yes, they could better implement bosses into the game for exactly this purpose. And give them a skill or two that can penetrate the invincabuilds. This is one facet of GW I always felt could of been better.
Last edited by Phaern Majes; Mar 04, 2010 at 10:10 AM // 10:10..
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Mar 04, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07
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#84
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Older Than God (1)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Guild: Clan Dethryche [dth]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan Nibbler
The problem as I see it is that anet did the worst of both options as far as Ursan and SF. They either needed nerfing or they didnt (stand in whichever corner you wish) - but they needed acting on immediately .
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Yes, this is the worst possible option for game balance.
But I'd argue that it's no coincidence that Ursan just happened to be from a new expansion with meh sales, or that the SF combo required a skill from each of Factions, Nightfall and EotN.
Sometimes the business model gets in the way of providing us with a quality, balanced game. It sounds like ANet learned their lesson on this one, and will limit the skill set and not attempt to sell copies of expansions through imba skills this time around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakon
I just wanted you to know that I'm not just talking out of my ass.
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Oh, there would have been a very different tone to my posts if I felt you were just spreading disinformation and weren't worth taking seriously.
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Mar 04, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05
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#85
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE
Guild: We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]
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Step 1: Release sauce code to public
Step 2: Let us tweak the shit out of it for a few months
????
Hugely improved game
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Mar 04, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36
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#86
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Hall Hero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by some guy
Step 1: Release sauce code to public
Step 2: Let us tweak the shit out of it for a few months
????
Hugely improved game
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Do it, plox! ANet could honestly set a huge milestone doing this. Plus since they don't really care about the game too much anymore, why not let us mess around with it as much as we want ?
Still, there'd be a way to play the "vanilla-way", since they're doing the transfers via HoM.
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Mar 04, 2010, 08:23 PM // 20:23
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#87
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Forge Runner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by some guy
Step 1: Release sauce code to public
Step 2: Let us tweak the shit out of it for a few months
????
Hugely improved game
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Give us an official server emulator and get it over with I say.
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Mar 04, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31
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#88
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Arkansas
Guild: Just The Four Of Us [TRIO]
Profession: Mo/E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Slydell
Give us an official server emulator and get it over with I say.
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I'd put a God Mode in my version. lol
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Mar 04, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29
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#89
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On Earth
Profession: W/P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc
Sup vigor dropped in price because
1) Golds (gold items) are excluded from loot scaling
and
2) Better drops in Hard Mode
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Sup Vigor and Absorption dropped in price the day Anet increased the drop rate ever so slightly. This happened LONG before those 2 things you just mentioned. It happened when we only had 1 campaign (Prophecies). I'll assume you weren't around at the time with the statement you made. So you either didn't know or you forgot. Pick one.
Last edited by byteme!; Mar 04, 2010 at 11:28 PM // 23:28..
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Mar 04, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37
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#90
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Location: middle of nowhere
Guild: Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]
Profession: R/
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Full random skill bars would be bad and monsters would probably be even dumber, but psuedo-Random would be pretty sweet.
Lets say anet were to create a monster skill like this:
-Healing Prayers Talisman-
Cost: 0, Time: 0, R: 0,
Skill. When you spawn, This skill is permanently replaced by a random non elite Healing Prayers skill.
And repeat the idea for every skill attribute line, then see monster bars like...
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Overseer
Changed from the laughable shit he has to:
* Bane Signet Bane Signet
* Heal Area Heal Area
* Infuse Health Infuse Health
* Shield of Judgment Shield of Judgment (Elite, Hard Mode only)
* Holy Wrath
* Smiting Prayers Talisman
* Healing Prayers Talisman
* Res sig
Or
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shiverpeak_Longbow
* Distracting Shot Distracting Shot
* Power Shot Power Shot (Hard mode only)
* Serpent's Quickness Serpent's Quickness
* Winter Winter
* Marksmanship Talisman
* Marksmanship Talisman
* Wilderness Survival Talisman
This sort of controlled randomness to fill a skillbar would actually make things a bit more interesting. IMO it would be awesome if they put this in place and then loosened the loot scaling, thus making it harder to farm but better rewards when you did. Too bad it will never happen.
Last edited by Master Ketsu; Mar 04, 2010 at 10:43 PM // 22:43..
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Mar 05, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35
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#91
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cause you think I troll doesn't make my point less valid
Guild: We Roll Pros [POD]
Profession: A/W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deakon
I'd put a God Mode in my version. lol
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I thought Shadow Form was in this version too? Tut tut learn to play n00b.
Sarcasm.
If they did open up the code to us rather then make us wait 6 months for an update to a game filled with nothing but ragers, e-peeners, and epic retards, I'd like to see what could be made.
Edit: I am still /signed for AI update. If your going to make the game hard as hell for normal pugs, at least make it hard for 123 keyboard bashing farmers too.
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Mar 05, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36
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#92
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Grotto Attendant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaern Majes
They already have this, they're called bosses. But yes, they could better implement bosses into the game for exactly this purpose. And give them a skill or two that can penetrate the invincabuilds. This is one facet of GW I always felt could of been better.
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You completely missed the point. Bosses are (1) rare, (2) static, and (3) their extra skills are generally NOT invinci-build hosers. My proposal is that every mob could potentially have any of its member monsters upgraded, at random, to possess hoser skills. The key feature is forcing the invinci-build user into the impossible position of planning for every hoser skill that could appear in that area, because they have no way of knowing which ones they'll face, and over the course of several mobs, it's quite likely all will appear.
Example of randomized promotions:- Mob 1: Ranger gets promoted (D-Shot), Necro gets promoted (Well of the Profane).
- Mob 2: Warrior gets promoted (Dev Hammer), Necro gets promoted (Well of the Profane).
- Mob 3: Ranger gets promoted (D-Shot), Derv gets promoted (Rending Aura).
- Mob 4: None promoted.
- Mob 5: Derv gets promoted (Rending Aura).
- etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by some guy
Step 1: Release sauce code to public
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OK, here's my sauce code. I think it's very tasty on pasta.
Code:
Make_Sauce(float batches){
/* Initialize ingredients */
obtain(onion, round-down-to-nearest-int(batches));
obtain(garlic, 3*batches, clove);
obtain(tomato_paste, 12*batches, ounce);
obtain(parmesan_cheese, batches, TBL);
obtain(sugar, batches, TBL);
obtain(Italian_seasoning, 2*batches, TSP);
obtain(salt, 0.5 * batches, TSP);
obtain(pepper, 0.125 * batches, TSP);
obtain(basil, batches, pinch);
obtain(red_cooking_wine, 2 * batches, quick_swirl);
obtain(ground_beef, 0.75 * batches, pound);
obtain(saucepan);
obtain(skillet);
/* Do onions and meat */
onion.chop();
garlic.chop();
skillet.add(onion);
skillet.add(garlic);
while (!onion.cooked || !garlic.cooked){
skillet.stir_fry(medium-high_heat);
}
skillet.add(ground_beef);
while (!ground_beef.cooked){
skillet.stir_fry(medium-high_heat);
}
/* Do saucepan */
saucepan.add(tomato_paste);
saucepan.add(water);
saucepan.heat(on, medium_heat);
while (saucepan.contents.state != liquid){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.add(parmesan_cheese);
saucepan.add(sugar);
saucepan.add(Italian_seasoning);
saucepan.add(salt);
saucepan,add(pepper);
saucepan.add(basil);
for (i=0; i<5; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.add(skillet.contents);
for (i=0; i<10; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.add(red_cooking_wine);
for (i=0; i<2; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
/* simmer */
while (saucepan.contents.taste != damn_tasty){
wait(3000, seconds);
for (i=0; i<5; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.contents.check_taste();
}
saucepan.heat(off);
}
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Mar 05, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44
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#93
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: [PIG]
Profession: W/A
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Its not the opposition. Take DoA, you fight 4 different areas with a pretty good variety of mobs and area effects in HM. Most teams fail in HM, yet SF can do it in under an hour with the 'nerfed' version.
If every area had mobs like DoA, it'll be a headache. Get rid of SF.
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Mar 05, 2010, 03:41 AM // 03:41
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#94
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2010
Guild: [Pink]
Profession: P/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Slydell
Give us an official server emulator and get it over with I say.
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Definitely the way to go right here.
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Mar 05, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22
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#95
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Nov 2007
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
You completely missed the point. Bosses are (1) rare, (2) static, and (3) their extra skills are generally NOT invinci-build hosers. My proposal is that every mob could potentially have any of its member monsters upgraded, at random, to possess hoser skills. The key feature is forcing the invinci-build user into the impossible position of planning for every hoser skill that could appear in that area, because they have no way of knowing which ones they'll face, and over the course of several mobs, it's quite likely all will appear.
Example of randomized promotions: - Mob 1: Ranger gets promoted (D-Shot), Necro gets promoted (Well of the Profane).
- Mob 2: Warrior gets promoted (Dev Hammer), Necro gets promoted (Well of the Profane).
- Mob 3: Ranger gets promoted (D-Shot), Derv gets promoted (Rending Aura).
- Mob 4: None promoted.
- Mob 5: Derv gets promoted (Rending Aura).
- etc.
OK, here's my sauce code. I think it's very tasty on pasta.
Code:
Make_Sauce(float batches){
/* Initialize ingredients */
obtain(onion, round-down-to-nearest-int(batches));
obtain(garlic, 3*batches, clove);
obtain(tomato_paste, 12*batches, ounce);
obtain(parmesan_cheese, batches, TBL);
obtain(sugar, batches, TBL);
obtain(Italian_seasoning, 2*batches, TSP);
obtain(salt, 0.5 * batches, TSP);
obtain(pepper, 0.125 * batches, TSP);
obtain(basil, batches, pinch);
obtain(red_cooking_wine, 2 * batches, quick_swirl);
obtain(ground_beef, 0.75 * batches, pound);
obtain(saucepan);
obtain(skillet);
/* Do onions and meat */
onion.chop();
garlic.chop();
skillet.add(onion);
skillet.add(garlic);
while (!onion.cooked || !garlic.cooked){
skillet.stir_fry(medium-high_heat);
}
skillet.add(ground_beef);
while (!ground_beef.cooked){
skillet.stir_fry(medium-high_heat);
}
/* Do saucepan */
saucepan.add(tomato_paste);
saucepan.add(water);
saucepan.heat(on, medium_heat);
while (saucepan.contents.state != liquid){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.add(parmesan_cheese);
saucepan.add(sugar);
saucepan.add(Italian_seasoning);
saucepan.add(salt);
saucepan,add(pepper);
saucepan.add(basil);
for (i=0; i<5; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.add(skillet.contents);
for (i=0; i<10; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.add(red_cooking_wine);
for (i=0; i<2; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
/* simmer */
while (saucepan.contents.taste != damn_tasty){
wait(3000, seconds);
for (i=0; i<5; i++){
saucepan.stir();
}
saucepan.contents.check_taste();
}
saucepan.heat(off);
}
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That sauce code was epic.
On Topic, I agree about properly balanced mobs. I've been arguing for ages that this should have been the method for implementing HM. It beats stat-pumping stupidity hands down.
Note : any properly balanced mob should be able to beat solo perma-SF. Whether it will is another issue, but it should have the skills to.
Last edited by enter_the_zone; Mar 05, 2010 at 09:26 AM // 09:26..
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Mar 05, 2010, 11:01 AM // 11:01
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#96
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: DVDF(Forums)
Profession: Me/N
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If I remember correctly randomising of mob composition and/or skill bars has been suggested almost since the start of the game. IMHO it's simply much better than the continual cycle of nerf-new OP farm-Nerf we've had since day one.
People want a buff for mesmers in PvE, the best buff they could have ever gotten was randomised mobs.
I too had hoped HM would have been more than just boosting mob stats+a couple of tweeks but it seems that it was too much work.
And that's the problem. Fixing PvE should have been done as soon as it was obvious about power creep (I.e factions) when Anet still had the resources and will to do it. Don't count on it happening now though, but I do hope it has in GW2.
If people are wanting a quick, fix, bigger push towards balanced rather than gimick then either removing consumables or making them work only on yourself would be a big step. I prefer the remove option. Consumables are a bigger reason why gimicks rule PvE, than SF or Ursan ever was.
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Mar 05, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17
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#97
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy
Guild: [ban]
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
OK, here's my sauce code. I think it's very tasty on pasta.
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That is an amazing and tasty looking script, sir.
I'd love to see this suggestion on GW2G implemented: natural selection of skills. That thread also has very tasty sauce.
Last edited by MisterB; Mar 05, 2010 at 12:23 PM // 12:23..
Reason: Insert absent verb.
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Mar 08, 2010, 09:13 AM // 09:13
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#98
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jul 2006
Profession: R/
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Natural selection, genetic coding, but used while the game is being played. Interesting. Would improve idea's suggesting randomization, or champions. Maybe restrict it to Hard Mode, though playability could be considered when evaluating the relative success of a mutation.
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Mar 08, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22
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#99
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: behind you
Guild: bumble bee
Profession: E/
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ArenaNet Read this thread please !
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Mar 08, 2010, 03:51 PM // 15:51
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#100
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Underworld Spelunker
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo
Guild: Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]
Profession: E/
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Enemy teams in PvE are not meant to have actual chances to win.
They are just there to be utterly crushed.
If we had a 50% chance to win each fight, with maps that have more than 40 fights, then you'll get... TOO MUCH DEATH PENALTY.
I'm not saying that PvE enemies should be easier, but they should not have the full set of gimmicks since the very beginning of the game.
Eye of the north enemies are fine, but that's not the kind of things that should appear in Ascalon.
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